Hello and welcome to the 3d parent podcast episode number 94. And this is a special episode because it is a parent coaching or recorded parent coaching episode. So today I have a special guest on the podcast who is a parent brave enough to be recorded during a parent coaching session. So For the purpose, of course, of receiving support for themselves, but also To be able to share this recorded session on the podcast so that other parents and caregivers out there struggling with the same or similar challenges can also benefit.
So here's a little bit about my guest today. Her name is Caitlin and here's a bit about Caitlin and her family. Caitlin is a mom of three. She has a firstborn son who is eight years old, a middle son who is six, and her youngest child, a daughter who is two and a half. Caitlin is a full time stay at home mom and married to Mads, her husband of eight years.
Together, they live in Redmond, Washington, where they live a busy life filled with school and activities such as soccer. They are fortunate to have Caitlin's mom living next door and a supportive circle of family and friends. Welcome to the Three Parent Podcast, Caitlin. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
Okay, great. Well, we're going to dive right in. I'm going to go ahead and read what Caitlin submitted as her current challenges having to do with sibling rivalry. Something I know is very relatable for all of you out there who have more than one child. So here is what Caitlin sent me. My oldest is craving more alone time and attention than I feel I can give.
He is taking out his frustration on his siblings, especially his younger brother. He is very dismissive and even insulting to his brother. Unfortunately, I have a very hard time sympathizing with my oldest when he antagonizes his siblings, even though I know this is attention seeking behavior. I instead sympathize with my younger son and come to his defense, fueling the fire of hatred between siblings.
My oldest has craved attention since the day he was born, but he has become increasingly mean to his brother in the last couple of months. Both my oldest and I have started therapy. We are doing therapy separately though. I am seeing a therapist because the issue has brought up some sibling rivalry from my past.
I was actually the older and the quite mean perpetrator. My son is seeing another counselor who has reported that he truly is sad that he doesn't have more one on one time with me. Cue the mom guilt. I am feeling very stretched thin and not sure what to do. Each time I try to do one on one time, With my oldest, the other two children are like moths to a flame.
I feel like it's an arms race where all the kids are competing for more and more and more of my time. Our current situation is causing quite a bit of tension. My oldest is feeling sad and neglected. Our middle son is dealing with frustration from his brother and former best friend. My youngest daughter is determined not to be forgotten as well.
I feel stretched thin and my husband feels roped into watching the other two kids while I do one on one time or helpless because the kids just want me. And these are the main questions that Caitlin added at the end. What are some effective ways I can help fill each of my child's buckets? How can I recognize, compliment, pay attention to one child without making the other ones feel less than?
How can I maximize my time in playing with my children? And what is the best way to intervene when my kids are fighting or insulting one another? So much packed in there and I'm here to help you out because I know. First hand, I've got four kids. I get it. It's really upsetting when kids are not getting along.
And I also know how it feels to feel like, Oh my gosh, it all revolves around me. It's all my shoulder and I'm overwhelmed. So I'm so glad that you reached out for help. And I hope we can dig down together and get to some good strategies and solutions together. So let's jump in first. I have my 3d parent approach.
And the first thing I always try to do when problem solving. Issues is to get my sense of direction. That's one of my D's and my 3D parent approach. And the way I do that is by kind of doing the scan the situation, kind of get to the root of what's going on in three different categories. So I have my three questions.
Is it me? Is it my child or children? Is it us? Meaning like our relationships. So let's dig down a little bit and first figure out based on what you shared in your kind of summary of the challenges. But also, just in thinking about right now, what's going on for you? Is it me? Is the problem something having to do with me?
Would you say, yes, there's stuff going on that is like my issues that I need to kind of figure out how to solve? What do you think, Caitlin? I think I'm definitely a piece of the puzzle. I am feeling stretched in life as well. And so Adding one more thing on my to do list doesn't feel great, you know, it doesn't.
I feel kind of guilty feeling obligated to spend time with my son. I love him and I want to be with him, but I'm not sure how. There's like some resistance there. Almost like, okay, I need to, I want to spend more time with him. I know that's part of what he needs, but like, Oh, I'm just one person.
I'm already feel like. Yeah. Yeah. And I also have never really excelled at the imaginative play. So, you know, if he's like, Hey mom, can we do Harry Potter Lego figurines? There's a piece of me that goes, no. Okay. So there's part of it that like your, what your mindset is around, like what that one I'm on time might look like.
Is like I don't really love doing some of the things that I think he wants to do or that I imagine will be part of this one on one time. It's a little bit of that kind of like resistance just because like, it's not something that's natural and you're not alone in that. You know, I mean, there's certain activities that are just fun and natural and things we like doing our kids and then there's what they want to do and it's not always compatible so I get that.
What else do you think is going on for you in terms of where these challenges, what impacts you personally as the mom in this situation? Yeah, well, I think you, you articulated it really well. You know, I don't feel great at play, right? I know how to clean the house. I know how to run the errands and get the grocery shopping done.
That's, more my wheelhouse, but I don't really know how to pretend play, and I don't know how to measure whether it worked or I'm done, so it's felt like sometimes I'll, play and I think, Oh, I did such a great job and they're just hungry for more like I even. You know fueled the fire for them to want more.
And I'm like, no, that wasn't the point. Got it. Got it. Like, oh gosh, I didn't want more of that. Oh no. I've got it. So it's like, kind of almost like a comfort level. And also, what I'm also picking up is how you are kind of defining, like, what they need. In terms of like, oh, this, more of this one on one time.
In your mind, it's almost like, it looks like that. It looks like imaginative play. It looks like the things that your kids like to do, like building a Harry Potter Lego or something like that. That is what you're thinking of in terms of, okay, so what is needed is more of that. And it's something I don't really necessarily feel good at or like enjoy doing.
So would you say that's a pretty fair summary? Yeah, absolutely. And, honestly, as you're asking these questions. I'm thinking I also just sort of have this parenting belief that kids, you know, if they can play on their own, that's a good thing. And I might be coming in and overbearing and taking away their creativity.
And so I kind of prided myself on the fact that I'm there. They know. There if they need any help, but they can just imagine and play on their own. I really liked that, you know, during COVID, we just had craft stuff everywhere and they did, we got through that way, but I just, handed them the paper and the pens.
I didn't have to draw with them. Got it. New territory in some ways. So it sounds like we're also pushing up against some of your philosophy or like what you believe is what's best for kids is that they you not be involved, necessarily like directing their play that they should be more playing on their own, and that that's not something that necessarily that.
It is part of what you think necessarily is even what's best for kids in terms of creativity. Yeah, yeah. Got it. I hadn't thought of that. But yeah, that's, well, that's helpful because all of this is kind of thinking about what's getting in the way, what feels hard, what feels overwhelming. And some of it is like, we'll understand like time, right?
We only have so much time and you have three kids in this. Busy life and household. So some of it is like super like, Oh, I get what's getting in the way. It feels like it's just another thing on the calendar, totally relatable. But as you start kind of digging a little bit deeper and say, what are the holdups for me, it seems like we're starting to recognize some things that are like also getting in the way, and this is judgment free zone here.
These are really important for you to start identifying what's going on there for you that makes you feel like, Oh God, this is not enjoyable. And this is really helpful information in terms of. It's like us kind of working together to troubleshoot and problem solve. There's like zero judgment. It's like some parents are like, well, it's free for all, and they can't figure out how to make dinner happen at a certain time.
You know, I would maybe a little bit be kind of more in that category, play, creativity. I'm like diving. I'm like, gosh, do I have to do this, you know, grocery shopping. Yeah. We all have our natural strengths. We all have our natural challenges. And the main thing is my goal is to help you troubleshoot what's getting in the way and then help you come up with a solution that feels like.
It's part of who you are. It's not okay. Bevan says I need to sit on the floor and play, you know, pretend with my kid for 15 minutes because that's what a good mom does. No, you know, that might be what some moms do. But if that's not who you are, you're not going to feel this like intuitive, like draw towards connecting with your child in that way.
But there are some other ways that you're gonna be able to say, Oh, yeah, I totally feel comfortable and this more natural draw towards connecting with my kids in these ways that might be even more effective because you're in it, it's not just another thing you have to do. It's something that actually is a great place.
That works out for both you and your children, so that's great. The other thing is in terms of that kind of, is it me that I, that I kind of distilled from your write up was that there's some other stuff going for you that we're not going to go into a lot of, details or depth on, but just jumped out at me in terms of, okay, you've got some past wounds and some unresolved kind of a feelings related to sibling rivalry from your past.
So that's something that's yours that you're owning, that you're working with someone to address, but it is impacting kind of this response that you have to your kids when they have conflict. So something on your end that you're working through, you're already working through it with support, which is yay.
Caitlin, thumbs up. And the other part is their tendency to feel really triggered by your oldest going after the younger ones and getting into this like, this tendency to kind of almost like side or come to the defense of kids. You just feel this kind of instinctive mama bear go off, which is really natural.
It's a natural response. You know, something is harming your young and you go into those mama bear responses that oftentimes are almost like alarmed responses because it's almost like a Cougar is attacking the young. And so you almost go into that like primitive response. For a second forgetting, Oh, it's my other child who's struggling, right?
Not a tiger, right? So , that's somewhat, I think, part of what's impacting too, based on your write up, just kind of this triggered response to seeing this fighting happening between yourself, between the siblings. Absolutely. And what's also coming up are two things. I also just really love.
together time with my whole family, and when things work well, and our family of five is like harmoniously together, that is my happy place. And so it's hard for me to sort of like person off one by one, I just want us to all be happy together all the time, it's just unrealistic, but, and then also, I really feel helpless in how to intervene when The two older, especially, are at conflict with one another.
I feel like what I do seems to antagonize the situation. Just as you said, the mama bear coming to the rescue. And so that's really uncomfortable for me. I just want everyone to get along. That's really helpful because what's going on for you in that moment is a sense of helplessness and a sense of I'm ill equipped to be able to effectively intervene.
And so you're going into this like primitive response that Cougar is attacking the young, because you're kind of in this mode of. Heightened alarm, somewhat fed by the sense of, I don't know what to do. And so you're just going on instinct and kind of reactiveness, as opposed to kind of feeling, I know who I need to be in this moment.
I know how to intervene in a way that is not going to continue to perpetuate and increase maybe some negative feelings between the kids. But I can intervene in a way that will not further fuel those dynamics. So that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, parent coaching is. We're spending most time in this category, especially because I'm here to support you so you can support your kids because you're the answer.
You and your husband are the answer. And so if you're feeling right now, like I don't have the answers, I don't know what to do in these moments, I'm going to help you by the end of this coaching session, feel a bit more like I know what to do in those moments and feel more empowered and therefore able to kind of keep those reactive responses more in control.
So the second scan, the situation question. So is it me now, or is it my child or children? So thinking primarily about your oldest, since that seems to be kind of what you identify as being kind of like the root. I've got like the sibling dynamics that are not working out well, and in so looking at who he is, I noticed that in your write up you talked about that he has this kind of ongoing perception of not having enough contact closeness when I one time you that's kind of always been there, and that more recently, it's gotten to a.
It feels like it's gotten more intense and he's expressing more sadness. That's where this is stemming from, which is really, really helpful information there. Thinking about the fact that this is as you identified, kind of always, always been a thing, you know, back when, maybe your family was growing and you are having your second child, then your third, it's always kind of been a thing, can you remember back to before you had your second born?
Was he kind of also still like the kid who was always like. In your shadow, like always want to know where, where mama is, like, kind of couldn't handle you being out of sight. That's even before there was another sibling there. Is that part of who he was as a little one? Absolutely. I mean, we were attached at the hip.
I, I thought, Oh no, I won't co sleep and you know, two nights later he was right next to me and he was attached, I kind of came out that way. I was. A more anxious mom at first than I thought, so I might have just passed that anxiety. But I remember the first time ever driving away from him. I actually felt like my heart was being ripped out of my chest, like I could like feel the umbilical cord stretching still, and so he's just always He was the child that fell asleep, nuzzled into me, whereas my other children, would fall asleep and roll away, and he actually has, that scarcity mindset for everything, he has a lot stronger, maybe being the firstborn sense of ownership of toys and things and kind of always wanting more
Is he, would you also say that he is like just in general more sensitive in nature, has bigger reactions to, his emotions than other kids Or now you have to others to kind of like think back and reflect upon? Does he have the more intense.
Emotions to everything from separation from, anything that might stir him up frustration. Is that kind of part of his nature too? Yeah, he actually, he's incredibly emotional and he's actually incredibly articulate and in tune with his emotions. He names things that are going on interpersonally.
better than I do, but he's not a huge motor of emotions. Ever since he was a little kid, he's actually very regulated with them. And so he will release stuff and stuff until. Things are wrapped and he goes to sadness more my middle is, I would say, more of a hot head and more, anger.
And he has an easier job kind of releasing his emotions, my older. So actually, the fact that he's sort of, I would say verbally insulting. In like a deep, mean way to his younger brother completely fits how he processes his emotions. You know, he really takes it deep and he gets really angry, but he'll show it.
Very stoically almost, yeah, that makes a lot of sense that he's really good at being able to kind of like you said, stuff down, not react in the moment. But what we know about emotion is that emotion, we experience, we don't get to control our emotions.
We experienced them. Right. And then, how we express them or. Keep ourselves from expressing them starts to be, something that people figure out. And some of that isn't really necessary to navigate life, right? We can't just have a meltdown whenever we're upset. That doesn't work real well.
But nevertheless, that emotion is still being experienced. So if it's being stuff, stuff, stuff, stuff, it's going to come out somewhere. And the most popular easy target is siblings. So it's like the result of the frustration, I got to put it somewhere. And so it comes out in these ways in this attack you way, which is really kind of coming from this kind of like, frustration that might be feeling around things like Not getting as much time as I want.
Yeah, with my mom. So that makes sense about what might be going on for him and his temperament. And being super emotionally aware, which is such a gift. Not a lot of kids have that ability at his age and stage, but also probably being a kid who tends to kind of Keep those feelings inside, but then they kind of grow and fester and are coming out and some behaviors driven by frustration.
last scan of situation question, is it us, our relationship? So we've kind of talked about this dynamic of this oh my gosh, almost perceiving the, the older one as being kind of like. The victimizer, the middle one being the victim, and then you, the parent, is the rescuer.
There's actually a term for this. It's called the Cartman Triangle. It is a dysfunctional family system. Yay! Very common. You know, very, very common. So it's not like, yeah, good luck with that. No, it's super common, but it kind of comes into play when things are not working, where it kind of already plays a role.
And it can get really, really hard for people to get out of those roles. And it's going to take somebody no longer participating in that. And that's going to be you. Because you having to kind of reframe the way you're thinking about these moments. So you don't immediately go into this mode. And again, like we already talked about, it's probably driven from this sense of like panic.
And I don't know what to do. I'm helpless. So you're going into this mode. We're going to get you out of that today. So that you're not going right into this. Because that triangle can get really, really problematic the longer it persists. Because then everybody plays their roles. And you have the younger ones that are just like, I'm the victim.
I'm helpless. And they're always waiting for someone to rescue them. And then you have a child who's been cast in the role of like the bad guy, which, of course, we don't all this is not the bad guy right in these dynamics in these moments. That's the that's the role he's playing. So we got to break this apart and no longer participate it and in that for that reason.
And then the other thing that seems to be really going on in terms of the relationship. Dynamics in the family is this kind of reaction to these perceived, like, limits of resources, in particular, access to, your attention and your Compliments your praise all of that tends to be kind of wrapped up into part of the dynamic and play that everybody's kind of like, Oh, there's not enough of mom so we all have to constantly, fight for our access, and therefore, focus on who's getting not enough who's getting too much use.
The lack of fairness in in the distribution of you as the primary resource. Anything else that you think might be going on in terms of the is it us question the dynamic as a whole with the family that we haven't touched on already. No, I just think you're right that I'm very much going into that sort of mama bear because I can kind of play it forward.
You know, 25 years, my sister and I, I was the older and we have repaired that relationship, but I started to go like, Oh no, don't make the mistake we did you guys. And so I do, I go into panic mode and not really knowing how to intervene. At all, sir. And it may be a little bit of kind of like, you projecting kind of your experience onto the kids and kind of getting into this, like, oh, gosh, this is going to happen, we've got to stop this from happening or something like that.
Yeah, and I think no blame on my parents. I think it was a different parenting time, but there was no intervention. It was just you guys, work it out, figure it out. I don't want to hear about it. And so I'm not wanting. So leave either of my children unsupported in that way. I want to try to step in.
So great. Let's dive into some solutions. You ready? Yeah, absolutely. Part of diving in the solutions really is about what we just did. First, just making sense of the work to be done. And sometimes we're a little bit lost and we're a little bit struggling with what to do because we just haven't really been identified where the problems are and you just did such an awesome job of doing just that.
Okay. So first let's talk about the conflict resolution.
What do you do in those moments? Because that seems to be one of the big things, that sense of panic. I don't know what to do. So in the moment, there's some type of altercation between Any of your kids or perhaps even does seem to be more one sided or maybe just your oldest is just, verbally attacking a sibling because he's walking around with some frustration for whatever reason, and it's just taking it out on a sibling.
Sometimes you have a tendency to do that kind of like the triangle we talked about, but a lot of times we try in those moments to control our kids their behaviors. Sometimes we try to dive in right there and try and like make sense of what's going on, why people are frustrated.
and make some progress or kind of like problem solve in that moment. And sometimes we listen to sides and we become judge and jury. All those things are not going to really serve you very well. Instead, we want to think of this in terms of like incident management. In fact, the strategy I recommend in a moment where there is heightened emotion, is what I call the three do's of incident management.
It is super simplified and you don't actually have to do very much. And that's, my whole thing is about how do we simplify this? All of those things that you might have had an instinct to do to problem solve, to figure out what's going on. Those are not bad instincts. It's. More a matter of the fact that the timing with which we are trying to do those things is off.
So in the moment, the three do's of incident management, the do number one, do no harm. And that's the one that's really for you, the parent. A lot of times we go into a reactive mode, and when we go into a reactive mode, we do harm to our relationship with our child or children. We say harsh things, we go into one of these dynamics like we were just talking about where we've like cast somebody in the role of the victimizer and someone's a victim.
We do things that can cause harm to our relationships or child or say things that can be harmful and wounding to them. We don't want to do that, of course. So do number one, do no harm. And so you need to ground yourself. And I know it sounds like, Oh yeah, take a breath, pause, blah, blah, blah. It's important at least to get yourself, okay, I'm going to do no harm.
And so I oftentimes suggest that parents kind of choose that. One phrase that can ground them real quick that they say internally, do no harm is a great one, or it might be, this is not an emergency, or it just that yeah, we'll reset. So you remind yourself, okay, and you get that sense that oh my gosh, I'm feeling myself.
My energies are going up, and you recognize that so you pause for and this is not a long pause because I know if there's a real thing going on you got to act quickly. So we're talking about a real quick breath. Do no harm. And then step to do take charge. But what do we take charge of? A lot of times we try to immediately go into taking charge of our kids and their behaviors.
Don't talk like that. Don't say those mean things. Don't throw things. Don't act like that. Don't talk back. We go right after the kids behaviors. The reality is we can't really control that. It's like the balls in our kids court. So we were trying to go after and when we get the sense and the reality hits that, gosh, we actually can't actually control my child's behavior.
We escalate, we get more frustrated and then we start going into threat. And we start going into removal of screen time. It has nothing to do with the thing that's going on right now, but we do it out of desperation. We're trying to find something that will control the child because we clearly are not doing it.
So instead, you're going to take charge of what you can in the moment, which are the circumstances surrounding the situation. The number one go to when it comes to sibling conflict is Separation of the kids in question. So getting them separate from each other, and this is not done in a way that feels like a timeout or punitive.
It is truly a very neutral approach. I encourage the use of the words. This isn't working right now. No one's being judged. Noma is being blamed. No one's at fault. The reality is you may have walked into a situation that was already playing out for a few minutes, and you didn't really see what led to a kid getting into that mode.
So you don't really know what is happening. And again, this is not the time to figure it out. So right now we're going to take charge of what we can't. Hey, looks like this isn't working to be together right now. So everybody's going to find their own space in here. Why don't you stay here? And then here, let me find you something to do over here.
You're just trying to get them away from each other. You're taking charge. Being together right now is not going to be an option. So we're going to find our own space to be. No one's in trouble, but just being together right now is not going to work so that is the key thing. We're just trying to find space between them.
It may seem like one kid is super, super at fault. It's, we got to change our thinking about that. One child is really struggling and the other child is in the path of destruction. And I got to get that kid away from it. And I got to get this kid away from Acting not in line with their character because they're exploding.
This is not who that child is. It's how they're reacting because they're stirred up for some reason. And we don't know what the reason is yet, and we don't need to know yet. We just need to separate and take charge of what we can. So again, it's, we're not going to be judge and jury. We're not going to try to make headway.
We're not going to be. Investigating the circumstances. We are just taking charge and moving locations. If it's fighting over a toy, a Lego, a ball. Oh, looks like it's not working right now to play with that. I'm going to put that away for right now. We'll try again later. I didn't even stop to listen to figure out who was doing what I can just tell being together playing with that's not working.
We're putting it away. So it's just taking charge of what you can. So location separating if it is an altercation over something. It might be removing that thing is part of what is what you're going to take charge of it's something that is not your child's behavior that you're going to take charge of.
And in that moment, you may have a child that's really expressing a lot of emotion. So you're going to say, Hey, I'm interested in listening to you, but in private. And so I really want to hear you're so upset what's going on, but we're going to do that in your room or my room or downstairs, or you meet me in the car, whatever it is, I really want to hear what you have to say, but we're going to do it in private.
What you're doing there is you're preserving dignity. You are in fact, protecting other people that might hear, I hate my brother. He's so stupid. He's, you know, which that child may need to express that, but. It's not going to be in the presence of the one that, is right now stirring up his feelings and emotions.
So he's not having to. Listen to that, but your child is going to have some space to be able to express whatever's going on for him. So you can say, yeah, I'm totally willing to hear you, but we're going to do that in private. We're going to do that over here, whatever. And then my kids would actually love that.
Oh, my kids would actually love that. Like I love the neutral behavior language that you're providing. And then, they would love to bend my ear in private. I've not in the past. Been able to entice them to be apart from each other because they seem to just be like magnets. Mm-Hmm. , but, okay.
Interesting. Yeah, because they're, you know, they're getting something out of attacking each other. Yeah. It is an opportunity for them to release a whole big flood of, of ocean, but it's. Not in a productive way. Right. And so we need to separate and build in that separation and let the kids know that like it should not feel punitive.
Like I said, it should be like, Hey, we need to separate. This isn't working. I'm interested in what both of you have to say, but we're going to have to do that in private. And then you have to kind of gauge based on your kids, based on their temperaments, based on how things are playing out. Like who maybe is the house on fire that maybe you need to go to first, but also if you spend so long with one, the other one's sitting there feeling so like, okay, I hear what you're saying, I can go check in on the other one and I'll be back in a few minutes, but I need you to stay in here.
And so you're just letting them know you're not going away. You're not abandoning them, but you need to be able to hear what's going on to try and navigate. When you're listening, if this does happen at this juncture, when you're listening, you're just allowing them to vent their feelings and frustrations and you're validating.
Validating does not mean agreeing. Validating just means I hear you're really angry and frustrated. I hear sometimes it's really hard to have a little brother. I hear it's really hard to feel like, everybody is getting more attention than you are. You're just validating and saying, I hear you, you're not debating, you're not offering other perspectives.
You're just listening and saying, you get to feel that way. I understand you feel that way. okay to feel that way. We're not going into any judgment about how they're going to express themselves because that's not what we're doing now. Remember, we're not trying to make progress. We're not trying to, reason that's not possible right now or just allow separating and allowing opportunities to express themselves.
The third do of the dues of incident management is do circle back later. So sometimes parents feel like, well, I don't want my kid to get away with that kind of behavior. I want to be able to address the problematic behavior. My kid was saying terrible things to their sibling. , I need to be able to, say that's not okay or whatever.
So just know that you do get to address all these things. There is. There's time to circle back and address these problems. The issue though, is we're usually trying to do it when emotions and frustration are still elevated. And that's not when we're going to be able to make any progress. So if they're having a need to vent frustration, that's fine.
That could be part of what's happening when you're kind of like directing traffic and having people go to their own spaces. But again, we're just listening and validating feelings. We're not making any progress. Then we circle back later. Any questions about this before I talk about what does that sound like when we actually do address the issues?
No, that's really clear. Yeah. I'll just be listening back to this recording to get those exact words they were like spot on. Absolutely. It's like kind of needing sometimes a script to follow and have those words. When I work with clients, a lot of times they find themselves saying this isn't working.
This isn't working. This isn't working all day long, but it's helpful until maybe you add some variety to the way you're expressing it. It's neutral. No one's being blamed. No one's in trouble. It's neutral like it's this isn't working, not you can't do that, which is a big reframe or you can't act that way or you're being mean.
Nope. It's looking like it's not working together right now. I see a lot of people really frustrated. So we're going to separate right now. I'd love to figure out what's going on for you, but in private. And then again, we're not actually going to be problem solving, we're just going to be listening, letting all that emotion be expressed.
You mentioned that part of what has been identified for your oldest is the sense of sadness. as I'm sure you're aware, is underlying all that anger, all that rage, all that frustration. So in the process of him getting that all out, He might get to his sadness. He might be able to get to those underlying feelings.
Like you said, he's really attuned to understanding feelings and emotions, not as comfortable expressing them and getting to that place. Probably because he's this more sensitive nature guy and he's pretty good at stuffing those emotions. But this is what happens when you don't get to those underlying feelings as they tend to have to explode.
They can't be stuffed forever. So it could be really, really helpful for him to have that private place to be able to let it all out. And I know it's hard when we hear kids say, I hate my brother. I wish my brother was not even, born. I wish he wasn't here. Those stir up some feelings in us, but they're valid feelings.
And so what's being said is like, it's hard. It's hard to be a big brother. It's hard to have younger siblings. Yeah, it is. It is. And so he gets to have those feelings and doesn't have to be talked out of his feelings. The caring feelings towards his siblings will return once he gets a chance to express his frustration.
So don't be afraid of those words and don't try and talk him out of those words. Validate. God, it sounds like it's really hard for you. to have a little brother sometimes, and validate that. So when you're going to actually have this time to go back and circle back later, you're going to navigate a conversation with the kids that, because we're talking about sibling conflict, it's going to be focused on repair.
And it's going to be focused on seeing if you can help navigate or come alongside your child. And then feeling a very vulnerable feeling, which is a sense of remorse. Sometimes we go in real quick. You should say you're sorry, you need to go apologize, make things wrong, and we jump the gun. And we don't actually give space for a child to actually feel that.
So with younger kids, your older one, maybe might think this is a little bit cheesy language, but certainly you're younger too. I literally say to my kids after kind of things have calmed down and said a little bit, say like, gosh, I heard what you said earlier. And I know what happened.
I bet you're feeling a sorry inside about some of the things you did or said for your older one. He might think that's like baby talk. So you might say like, I know that's not who you are. You don't mean to be like hurtful towards your brother. You were super frustrated. I know you care about his feelings.
And I bet now you're kind of thinking about it and feeling like, Hmm, I might've said some things that were a little harsh or mean. So find the way to kind of approach that. But the key is not to think that, okay, when we're doing these conversations later, when everybody has calmed down, my job is to teach a lesson.
Your kids are all, including your little one, they all know hands are not for hitting. They all know it's not okay to say mean things to each other. They all know it's not okay to put down people. It's not a matter of not understanding. It's a matter of not being able to resist the impulse to react in those moments of super heightened emotion.
So. Save yourself time, energy, taking a lesson, buying another book about being nice to one another and kind words. Not necessary. They already know. So it's more a matter of kind of validating that. I know, you know, it's not okay to, I know you're a kind person and you don't intend to hurt. You get really frustrated.
Sometimes it's totally understandable, but I also know you don't mean to hurt people. So I bet inside somewhere you're feeling a little bit bad about it. See if you can tap in that sense of remorse. That is where you have power to be able to help your kids navigate a repair. So sometimes it's like, nope, don't feel sorry at all.
Actually meant every word of it. Okay. I understand. I'll check back with you about that later by yourself. Some more time. It's when my kids were little and I'd say like, do you have a sorry inside? Nope. Okay. I'll check back about that later. But here's the thing. Eventually, they're drawn to each other.
Eventually, they want to interact again. Eventually, they want to play. And remember, you just said, Oh, it's not working to be together right now. It's enough time's gone by. Everybody's calmed down a little bit and they want to get together. Oh, hold on real quick. Some stuff just happened that was, I know, not, didn't feel good to a lot of different people here.
So we need to have an opportunity to do a check in with each other before we can see if being together right now is going to work. So. If you've already had a conversation with them individually about checking to see if there's in that remorse, you can right then go in, okay, let's go over and go check in with brother and go see, how he's feeling.
And then you're going to actually kind of help them do this repair. Again, if they come to, if you're talking to them and they do show that, like, yeah, I felt kind of bad. Great. They felt the remorse. The next thing is like, what do you think you could do to make things right? And then whatever they come up with.
Needs to be okay. It may not look like the traditional. I'm sorry. I did this thing. It might look like, well, you know, we were fighting over this toy. I guess I could give him my toy and say he could play with it right now. Or like, well, maybe, I got some candy at this class party at school. So I'll go give him my piece of candy.
Those are all apologies. Those are all repairs. So what is coming naturally up for your child in terms of how they want to make things right? You go with that. Because that is authentic and that is actually going to help heal some friction, some wounds. If they're wanting to come together and they have not admitted there's a sorry inside yet, that's the time to say like, Oh, wait a minute.
I think we need to check in with each other first if we're going to actually be together in the same space again because it wasn't working earlier. And then you kind of kind of help even feed the words to the kids of what a check in looks like and it's just for one of them to say like, Hey are you okay?
Okay. And then it gives the chance for the other child to express what wasn't working for them. And for the other child to respond to it in the way they want to. They may feel compelled to give an apology. They may say, Oh, you know, can I give you a piece of candy? Or can I, give you that toy to play with that we were fighting about earlier?
So it might be like their opportunity to kind of make their repair. And then it goes the other direction. And even if it seems like maybe it was the old one attacking the younger one, still give the younger one an opportunity to ask it the other direction. Are you okay?
Well, , it really bugs me every time that you copy me and you copy me a lot. He might bring up something that wasn't about that moment, but it's something that's fueling his frustration towards his brother. So it gives him an opportunity to share something that's bugging him too. And it might be about that actual moment or it might be something else.
So it gives him a chance to express what's not working for him in the relationship. And then the younger one says, is there anything I can do, or can I give you this or whatever that repair might be okay, I'll try not to do that in the future or whatever you're making a promise or something like that.
And you're kind of coaching them and giving the words to do this. You're not the one that's being judge and jury. You're not the one that is like telling them how they're going to fix it. You're helping just be the moderator, being the person that's kind of helping make this happen. And once they've gone through this process, then we can be together again.
That's how that all plays out. Any questions about that process. I love that idea. I'm like a little, I mean, it brings above board. I think so much that we're doing non verbally. I have a slight concern like, Are you okay? Might escalate like at first when we try it with the older, just use that as an opportunity to say, Oh, you know, my brother's so annoying.
He's stupid. I don't want him here. I fear that he would at first be like, Nope, there's no sorry there, I feel like, He's often still angry, but then yeah, they kind of start playing together again. I mean, they do forgive each other, but it's never done, above board like that or verbally and right.
So it might take it might take a little time, especially if this is a newer thing. and I find that when you have kids are a bit more resistant to it, waiting until they are naturally wanted to come together. And like everybody has calmed down, it's a great place to do it versus kind of when they've still been separated and you've kind of tapped into some remorse or whatever.
That when it seems like they're wanting to be, Oh wait, hold up. We need to do a check at first. Cause there were some feelings. So they're already feeling drawn towards each other. That frustration is down. Timing is key. If there is still a lot of frustration feeling there, it's not the time.
It's got to be once that has really kind of like gone away and so you might be buying yourself some time it might actually even not be the same day. It might be we're gonna let it go right now but we're gonna revisit later. Yeah, with the older one the one you're worried might like unleash a fury of things again if he's not in a mode of frustration in that moment, his frustration level has gone down.
And you're kind of tapping into some frustrations that he has about his brother. You can go ahead and like, okay, let's go check on your brother. I think it'd be important for you to share and maybe help them identify the thing that he will share. So that you kind of almost rehearsed it ahead of time.
You kind of already identified, you know, I think I get it. I get why you're really frustrated about your younger brother when he does these things. I think it's important to share that that's not working for him. Let's figure out the best way to do that. And I'll help remind you if you forget. So you can kind of like, maybe to some degree, kind of like help package the delivery when there's still learning how to do this.
I've been so good though. I mean, honestly, my husband and I need to do this after some of our discussion. Yes. I've been, I've been like, kind of like addressing this in terms of sibling relationships, but the same thing goes if, if there's something that's happened between you and one of your children, it's not a sibling thing.
Same thing, you navigate these like conversations in a similar way, talking about this thing that happens between you and your child, making amends, repairs, problem solving together you modeling how to do a wonderful, authentic apology and repair, taking responsibility for the stuff that you did wrong, because we're human and we're going to have Yeah, Plenty of things to apologize to our kids for because that's just part of life.
And, but we're modeling it for them and it will start to become a framework of how they navigate conflicts in relationships lifelong. Okay. Let's move on to talk about cultivating some sibling bonding. So just knowing that there's kind of just this ongoing kind of like sense of kind of like discord between the siblings. We're going to get to like you and your time and attention after this. So this is just kind of like Bridging off a little bit of that, like navigating conflict, and at times there's not conflict.
How do we continue to help the kids build healthy bonds between each other and not feed into some of the common like landmines that come up between siblings? One of them is to find opportunities to I'm borrowing from the work Neufeld. He uses his term matchmake. Between siblings. If you think about like matchmaking, we're usually thinking about romantic relationships, but if you think about the role of a matchmaker there to kind of bring people together and to try and, highlight for each other the attributes of the other person that they might find attractive and, worth pursuing relationship with.
And what the other thing that the matchmaker does is they kind of report back to each person. And like, okay, so I heard that, so and so really loves how you are, so creative and come up with all these great project ideas. Well, it's the same concept that you're doing with your kids.
You're seeking opportunities to kind of highlight moments when maybe the younger brother, you could tell how much he like thinks it's so cool. His big brother is so good in soccer. So you would go to the big brother sometime in private and be like, you know what the other day your little brother said, Oh my gosh, I hope I could be as good as soccer.
And my big brother, one day he looks up to you so much. You're just like dropping a little sweet little nothing in his ear. Similarly, let's say the little brother or the little sister does something super cute and funny and adorable mispronounces a word. You kind of do a little wink to the big brother and you're like, isn't that cute?
Kind of like a wink, wink, did you notice that? You're just trying to kind of keep on cultivating these really sweet, good, caring feelings between the kids. The other thing that can be really, really helpful, and this somewhat also addresses the sense of fairness, being like, that's not fair is, To not lump your kids together in the same category all the time, meaning not trying to make things like even all the time.
I know we talked about this earlier before we started recording our session, but this idea of like, Oh, fair means even in the same. We all kind of like knowledge that like, no, we have to break that from our kids mindset. Yet we kind of tend to do that a lot. Because we're trying to avoid the conflict without realizing that it actually makes it more probable because we're almost playing into this idea of even equals fair.
So what I encourage families that have multiple kids to do is actually to identify some differences in terms of both, privileges as well as responsibilities. And play into the natural hierarchy that already exists within your family, you've got, the parents here at the top of the hierarchy chain, and then you have these three children and in their natural birth order.
So, depending upon their age, the older one has maybe a few more responsibilities chores, helping out around the house is a great way to address that, then the younger ones. And at this age, you help out in these ways and also some more privileges. Maybe they get to stay up a little bit later for bedtime.
Maybe they get to have, certain access to certain things at a certain age for the younger ones. Maybe if you have allowance in your household, they're paid based on their age. Not everybody gets 5 a week. You get paid based on your age and where that comes increased expectations in terms of responsibility, but also you get.
Rewarded more for it in terms of privileges. So it can be something like chores and allowance. It can be things like later bedtimes. It can be, I mean, when your kids get older, like at what age a kid gets. Use of a phone, you know, that's not going to be okay. Now everybody gets a phone. Of course not, right?
It has to do it. Age and stage. So thinking about the way in which your family operates, how can we look at their age and create a bit more difference in terms of what they get to do and what they have to do as part of your family dynamic can be a helpful way to get rid of some of that tension around fairness.
And also can be helpful in terms of Helping kids, grow in their responsibilities and their skills in our household. At a certain age, you start folding your own clothes. At a certain age, you start folding and putting away your, your own clothes. At another age, you do all your laundry completely.
And that is something that happens at a certain age and stage in my household. That's just one example. The other kids don't do that just once you get to that certain age and stage. So it's kind of like, Oh my gosh, that's a lot of responsibility. I get it. But you also at this age get to do these things that you didn't get to do, because you're at this age and stage.
So thinking about that can be helpful in dealing with that somewhat. And I think the other piece of this in terms of the family hierarchy is trying to nurture the sense of caretaking towards younger siblings. So I talked about the matchmaking concepts. Similarly, think about ways in which maybe like you're older to where are some things that your older child can do or is good at or more of the expert in that the young, the middle one would feel more like, like, Oh, I really want to like learn or look up to or learn this thing that the older one to feel like, Oh, I'm going to teach this thing.
It could be a game. It could be, you know, how to build certain things where he kind of go into this more natural, you know like leadership role, teacher role and mentor role towards the younger siblings and all the way down to the youngest. How can we continue to nurture that sense of caretaking, not in a way that is like taking advantage of child and making them be like taking care of their siblings, but more does this natural instinct to teach, to model, to take care of the younger siblings that also can help sometimes in writing some of these tensions within families with multiple kids.
Any questions or feedback on any of those different things I just highlighted there? No, I think that's actually really good advice. So we have I've got the two boys that are just two years apart, and we really have like lumped them in together. But I can feel that my oldest is craving that sort of little more responsibility, a little more privilege, unfortunately, they share a room and have the same bedtime.
So I will rack my brain to think kind of what we could do, but I think that's spot on. And I think I think that would really help. Yeah. Yeah. I think creating again, like some separation. So maybe they share a room, you said. So maybe, you know, the older one doesn't get to stay up a little bit later, but maybe it's reading outside on the couch with, one of you and the other one gets put to bed a little bit earlier or something like that.
Thinking how you can creatively navigate something like that. Okay, now getting to kind of like the big final like, Oh my gosh, how do I meet all these kids needs how to make them feel they're getting enough connection. The first thing I want to do is help reframe this idea of needs more attention.
equating needing more time necessarily needing more, another thing on the calendar. And I think the first easy kind of mindset reframe would be to not think of it in terms of attention seeking, but connection seeking. It's not attention and time necessarily, that can be a part of it. And that can be something that you work out and structure into your family, but it's more about connection.
It's more about the need to feel a sense of connection. We don't want our kids to be operating in a mode of having to always work for that sense of connection. We're talking about attachment here. Kids, frankly, should be in a mode of rest. They rest in the sense of ongoing connection. They don't have to work for it.
They can just go about their lives playing, reading, doing cool crafts. It's not working for my piece of the pie. Working for my piece of the pie. The piece of the pie being the sense of connection. So when you reframe it that way, it might feel a little bit like ambiguous, but let me kind of help highlight.
Yes, it can be really helpful to have structured one on one time. And yes, the like, you know, 10 to 15 minutes per child, once a day math does pan out. And that can be a part of your, like, here's the structured time that you get one on one time. That can be helpful. It is helpful to have that. It does kind of put a child at a state of like, I know I'm going to get mine.
It's guaranteed. It's on the calendar. I get mine every night at this time. Or if we're just talking about maybe like the two oldest boys. That maybe it alternates. Maybe it's one on one time with dad for this child this night, one on one time with mom for this child on that night. Alternate between the two.
So one child is with like your middle son, your middle son is with your husband getting one on one time for 15 minutes on Monday. While you're getting 15 minutes with your oldest and then it flip flops. That's one way you can work that in. There is something to be said about having that structured guaranteed time that you have, even though it says 10, 15 minutes and you're together with your child all the time.
What is it about that time? It's the fact that it's guaranteed and it is. It is just you and that child. But then to answer your question about, okay, but what do we do? I don't really want to feel like doing make believe, right? And that is where you need to think a little proactively, a little ahead of time.
I'm going to help you out. I'm going to be sending you a resource, which is a month's worth of one on one time activities already plotted on a calendar and then a blank one so that you can figure out what these things might be. And this could be what your activity is one night. With your child is let's like figure out what we're going to do.
And you get to decide what activities are fair game. So if play make believe stuff is not something you want to do, it's not fair game. So you figure out the things that you do enjoy doing with your child during that time, that could be plotted out already, or it might just be, here's the list of activities and we'll just choose from it.
And we maybe don't need to plot it on a calendar. It could be whatever works for you, but I'm going to provide you with some ideas and things that are outside of the world of. Just random play make believe for 15 minutes, gritting my teeth. So you can kind of already have some ideas in mind. So that can be really helpful.
But beyond that, talking about what is really like going on here is the kids needing to feel a sense of significance. This kids need needing to feel a sense of connection that is not time bound. And that really can happen in your day to day interactions. just doing your normal everyday stuff. We tend to somewhat compartmentalize like, I got to do the dishes.
I've got to do the dinner. I've got to do the grocery shopping. I got to do the laundry. I got like all the stuff that we have to get done. And kind of almost think of that as just like the stuff that has to get done. And yeah, maybe your kids are helping out doing some chores or whatever. As well, but like, usually, come on, let's be real.
Not a lot of that. It's really falls down to the parents, right? And as a stay at home mom, you probably take a large portion of that. Start thinking about just your day to day interactions as being opportunities to invite your kids into connection with you. So it's like, yeah, you know, I can't play with you right now, but I got to do dishes, but I'd love for your company in the kitchen.
Why don't you come join me? You can help me out if you want, let's do it together. I mean, your little one will eat this up, right? Suds water plate. Awesome. You know, that's connection time. It's like, Oh my gosh, you got to clean up your room. I've got a little bit of time right now. Let's go do it together.
That's connection time. That is like, Oh my gosh, you know, it's, I know you got to do your, your daily reading for your teacher. How about if we do that together at the end of the day? And that could be connection time. It also comes down to Caitlin, the minutiae. I oftentimes talk about this sense of just turning towards your child.
When I come into your presence with delight and twinkle in your eye, that just says to your kid, I'm so glad you're here. Come here, give me a big hug. I was just thinking about you. It's those types of little mini ways in which you can send this ongoing sense of connection. You're on my mind.
I'm thinking about you. I'm delighted to be around you is what all this cup filling is really about. It's actually not really about more time and like attention. The way we think about it as being this like segmented thing. It's about the ongoing relationship that is just infused with a sense of connection.
When you have a kid like your oldest, who's always kind of just been running on empty, right? Can't get enough, can't get enough, can't get enough. I think probably the most powerful thing to think about is to trump the needs. Again, I'm borrowing from Dr. Gordon Neufeld. That's his language, but I love it.
Trump the needs. You're trying to get ahead of his sense of like deficit. So you're trying to seek before being stopped. So if it's that rare moment, he's out of your line of view. You go to him first before he comes to find you. You're like, Hey, I was thinking about you. What are you up to? You go to him first.
What happens is he hasn't had to feel that sense of, I feel a lack of connection. I need to get some, or I just overheard mom playing with my brother. Therefore I need to go in and insert myself. You got there first. You filled up that sense of connection before he had a chance to feel it depleted. He got ahead of it.
He doesn't have to be in this mode of working for it because you already filled it before he got there. I know when you have this kind of like intense pursuing child, I have a couple of them in my own household, my real sensitive ones. And it feels like it's never enough. It's never enough. It's never enough.
And when I have myself. Like followed my own knowing what to do and I've kind of sat with like, oh my gosh, I feel so overwhelmed. I got these four kids. Everybody needs so much. And I know this is particular child that actually needs more than what I'm giving. And I have to sit there in my feels for a minute or two and feel kind of like this is overwhelming.
This is hard. I'm on this one person and this, you know, that's okay. You got to feel that way. That is justified. It is overwhelming. But that is the step before I find my resilience and my ability to be like, I can do this. I know what this kid needs, and it's not less of me. It's more of me. And it's more of me in the way that feels less overwhelming as it's literally just check ins before he comes find you.
It's really just seeking him out and saying like, Hey, I gotta go to the grocery store. I want to come with it's finding those opportunities to give an invitation before he's asking for more. And that can be just things that you think about on a daily basis. before the next time you're going to come into interaction with any of your kids.
And then you want to kind of just take a look at, you know, of course, if it's all the focus on one kid, the other ones are going to be wanting more. But this again, like I said, starts to become just kind of like, how do I infuse any of my interaction with my kids with a sense of connection that is not time bound.
You get my attention one on one, you get my attention one on one. That might happen once a day or every other day for 15 minutes that they this guaranteed time slot. But beyond that, it can happen just in your daily interactions. Lots and lots of that. And that, that, well, that's huge. And I can do that. You know, that does not overwhelm me.
That, I'm thinking. Yeah, I pursue him. And I love that because it gives me something actionable and I think that could really work really quickly actually. Like it does be like, mom, I got this, like he'll be like, I don't know. I don't need to, cause he's not a totally attention hungry kid all the time or anything.
I think we're just stuck in this rut where he's feeling like he has to pursue me and I love that. I light up when they come in the room and, verbalize, I was just thinking about you, I was just, doing this or thinking about that because they're my world, but I don't necessarily want to sit down and play Lego with them.
I love this idea though, like just the. Check in the showing the verbalizing what I'm feeling honestly all the time. And there can be a little bit of a degree of exaggeration and maybe a little bit of a degree of embellishment. When you're doing this, because it's like being really intentional because we are, our attention is all over the place and we do have so much on our plate.
So sometimes it might feel like Making a bit more of basically the feelings will follow the actions is basically what I'm getting at where it might feel like I really got to get this email out right now and like, I don't want to be interrupted and like kind of building into like, no, I'm going to be immediately.
I can get back that email in a second. If I just turn to my child and be like, Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad to see you. I can't wait till I'm done with this email because I'm coming to you. I was just thinking about you, those things that just continue to build a sense of connection and, really, it's security and it is a sense of significance.
You can also just think about when your kids, maybe one of your kids that you're feeling a little bit more of that. sense of disconnect with. And it's like, Hey, I thought of you, I made your favorite dinner. You know, it's like those, those little things that Hey, I was out and I saw that your favorite type of apple was in the store.
And I made sure to get your pointing out, draw attention to all the times in which you're thinking of your child, but you're verbalizing it and bringing it to their consciousness. That's going to continue to build in more of a sense of connection. So it doesn't feel like it's another thing to do when it's just part of, re kind of working what you're already doing with this extra thought about how do I continue to give this sense of invitation to my kids to be in relationship, to be connected, to join me in doing the stuff I have to do, and not necessarily, I've dropped everything to build in more time to build Legos and play make believe.
10 15 minutes a day really do pay off the rest of the time. Yeah. And then the family time, the togetherness. We are all together because yeah, I'm with you. I love that family time and that's important too, but that's different than the individual nurturing of each relationship with each of your children because both are important.
The whole family unit. And also continue to nurture the bond connection attachment, each of your children. And I do this, I instinctually did this when they were toddlers, because there's, I'm sure you remember when your kids were toddlers, you try to pull away and they are like all over you.
Right. And so they just come even more. So then I used to call it like kill them with kindness, like go overboard and they'll calm down so quickly. But I kind of forgot that my eight year old still needs that he needs it verbally and in a different way But he's still craving that connection.
Yeah yeah, and so I think kind of like my big takeaway kind of to summarize in terms of this piece is just remember that all behavior is communication and what the behavior is communicating in these cases is a child who's working for more of a sense of connection. And to keep that in mind, that's what's needed.
And then we all know that's our job. It's our job to keep our children feeling connected to us. It's not their job to work, to stay connected to us. So whenever you're getting that sense from when you're kids, it's like, Oh yeah, I remember what this is. And I know now what my marching orders are. It's yeah, it's always going to be hard work, right?
It's always going to take a lot of energy. There's nothing about parenting. That is easy. Plug and play nothing. But when you're like, I know what my kids underlying needs are and the need for connection is above all others, even food and water. And we know that scientifically proven through experiments thankfully not on children, but on our close relatives, the primates that like the need for connection is the greatest human need.
So it is a valid connection. It is a valid need that is not just like my annoying kid that just wants more of my time. And I'm not saying that that's how the way you're thinking about it is, but just in terms of us as parents feeling spread so thin just thinking a little differently about actually is required of us.
It doesn't necessarily have to be another thing on the calendar. That helps. Like I said, Caitlin, I'm going to send you and I will link in my show notes, a link to this little calendar to kind of plot out your one on one time. I have one that is for younger kids and I have one that is for tweens to teens.
So you can even build in special time with your teenagers and do cool things with them to that they just, they love. And it doesn't have to be a ton of time, but having that scheduled is a part of helping them feel like I don't have to work for it because I know I'm going to get it. Having it scheduled is helpful.
I hope that the strategies that I've worked through on this podcast episode have been a help for you, Caitlin, and also those of you who've listened in to this. Episode. Thank you so much for joining Caitlin and thank you for listening.
